Curse

OblivionDanny · Apr 03, 2010, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Discussions like this happen ALL the time, people arguing/complaining about builds etc... and the funny thing is it comes down to this:

Your ALL right and your ALL wrong.

C Spacing can be productive with a warrior, likewise it also can not be productive and effectively get you no where...

Like wise, SW sins can be overpowered in hexway type builds, but again in non hexway type builds they are not that overpowered.

So it simply comes down to this:

It clearly shows that some things are overpowered simply by the people using it. Some people are better at using chars then other chars its always been that way and still is today whether you like it or not and whether you believe some bars are button bashing or not is really irrelevant. Nothing else.

Amaurosis · Apr 03, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Noone ever said SW sins were stronger than warriors, it was merely implied that they are much easier than warriors. And the last time I checked SW was a 5e 1/4 cast 10s recharge skill that offered a 50% snare and DPS while under a condition, that paired with a simple 12345 makes SW strong but simple build, which seems to the problem with pvp nowadays. And any warrior c spacing in high end pvp would be completely useless. Balanced teams didn't win Halls or GvG Monthly AT through having their warriors c+space every target, but by applying active tactical pressure, which apparently you've never heard of. As I recall Anna you won halls a few days ago on an Assassin, whichs make me wonder why you say assassins aren't as strong as they appear and "button mashing warriors", namely axe warriors as you stated, should be nerfed. If that's the case then why HoH with assassin? It's a warriors job to have high damage output and axe damage shouldn't be touched in any way just because you feel a c+spacing warrior wins Guild Wars.

Killed u man · Apr 03, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

The one thing worse than ebayers are people who sway'ed their rank, honestly believing they are good players.

Enough people in this thread perfectly fit this template.

I love you Anna, don't ever change. Keep believing sins require skill to play, or hexway for that matter. Gl in HoH!

Missing HB · Apr 06, 2010, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Guess why you can see so many sins who suddenly appeared in HA around end of october ....

Anyway , the problem is about how easy a build is FOR a map : i can't consider anybuild to have as many chances as a two warrior two rupters build on relic , courtyard ( 1v1 most of time ) and hall objectives (1v1 aswell most of time ) . In addition , on normal fights , yes that is true , SW + hex is bit easier to play .

Also , apart of maybe 5-6 players in HA , noone become a good player by only playing sin , ele , healer , warrior , etc.... but all become good in fact at knowing tactics and knowing the map . The problem is that some maps with certain teams dont require any tactic ( i.e 1v1 hall holding or relic ) , whereas when you get 3 teams map , most of time , you cannot do anything because one of team believe you are " ganking " them , resulting in a direct win for the third team .

Killed u man · Apr 06, 2010, 12:32 PM // 12:32

I would disagree on the fact that 1v1 Cap Points or Relic Run doesn't require skill.

If anything, they're the only 2 scenario's where I can actually see your team's tactics matter most. KoTH, Cap Points and Relic 3-way is always a game of chance. No matter how good your tactics are, you can't prevent a (maybe unwilling) gank by PvE'ers, or win a last second cap. (If both other teams decide to go after your runner, pz)

1v1 Cap Points and Relic Run, YOU control what you split to their base or relic, and/or what you split back to defend yours. This is also one of the few times you truly notice how bad people are.

On Cap Points, I see R10+ hexwayers/swayers just run straight for center, they get wiped because the other team has a fire ele, and then they resign out. Despite having played their shitway for over 8-10K fame (several months), they are still too stupid to realize (Like Rezz Anna) that their sins (which they have ATLEAST 2 off) can solo just about every other character on the enemy team.

All they had to do was send 1 or 2 sins to the blue base, maybe the VoR, and there wouldn't be much blue could do about it. They have enough necros who could defend their base against just about everything. (A LC necro WILL win vs a ranger if he's wanding)

I can say the same for relic run. I see bad balance winning against hexways, not because the balanced build is so good, but because the hexway is so bad. They simply still don't understand how powerfull a hexway 'or sway' really is.

And that's my point all along. Playing solely one build (even balanced) will not make you a good player. You won't understand game balance, or even the weaknesses of your own build. This is why Rezz Anna believes balanced is so overpowered, he never played it. Even on Relic Run, a Balanced will have alot of problems against a hexway with sins and a VoR that knows what they're doing. (Focus on killing rather than snaring -A dead team can't run relics)

And the deeper truth here is that people who did solely play balanced for their rank are still better than people who played solely shitways. Because balanced is the harder build to run. (It's still pretty easy, but it's not even in the same league as hexways/sways/iways)

Missing HB · Apr 06, 2010, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Once again , i will repeat myself , it is all about playing the map and not the build : ok , you decide who you do send on 1v1 relic hall , but just consider 2 hexways : holding team just have to stuck red relic spawn and that's it .

The situation is even more impossible to handle when a " balanced " is holding : mesmer just handle opponent snare with the prot , while rest of team ( hardest to kill than hexway obviously ) is going to stuck the relic . This result in , even if red team try to kill , blue team would still have more points anyway . I will agree with the 1v1 cap pts part .( although most of time , the ranger and the rit can handle easily SW sins )

I wouldn't say Holding 3 teams depends on luck : Most of time ,the situation is : blue team has 4-5 pts , and both other have 2. In fact , there are 2 cases : team holding loses his ghost , red team caps , yellow team resigns ( which is unfair for blue team ), or , yellow team still plays , ends with killing red ghost and blue recaps the altar , because they were in a better position . So, whatever happens , one of the teams is kinda " ganked " anyway , and thats why some teams try to find tactics on that map , relying on timer , etc...

Jbrown · Apr 08, 2010, 11:18 AM // 11:18

To put this back on topic, the thing that makes seeping wound so strong is the fact that its about 150 damage AND a snare all in one uninterruptable, spamable package. Two of these elements need to go. Until then, it will just be your basic 1,2,3,4,5,6 insta kill bar that does not belong in this game.

PS: To those who say that warrior bars take no skill...you have obviously never played a warrior outside of RA/PvE...or you are just terrible at the game with little or no understanding how anything works.

vinoth · Apr 08, 2010, 03:42 PM // 15:42

I think he meant to say that a good warrior is far more powerful than a good SW sin can be. A good war that knows how to pressure/bstrike/interupt/see whats happening in map = more pressure than a sin can ever be.

But there are only a handful of good wars.

Jade Zephyr · Apr 08, 2010, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

I think he meant to say that a good warrior is far more powerful than a good SW sin can be. A good war that knows how to pressure/bstrike/interupt/see whats happening in map = more pressure than a sin can ever be.

But there are only a handful of good wars.

I think he means that considering the aspects required to get the most out of a warrior, and then the power of said character,

that a Seeping Wound sin has a way too high powerlevel compared to what it takes to use it efficiently.

Missing HB · Apr 09, 2010, 11:09 AM // 11:09

It's not SW build which is powerful , it's all the sin skills that can be used for combo. For having played hero battles long time as sin , i can tell you that you could make maybe at least 10 diferent build that would be as nice as the actual SW bar .

This is leading to the problem : all sins builds are combo ( signet sin , wastrel , coward , ..) , otherwise , they are not very powerful ;thus everyone just say " yes it doesnt require any skill , u just press 1-2-3-4-5 and you kill".. yes ok, that's right but that's quite the definition of an assassin , here to kill fastly .

Actually , assassin is easier to play that warrior BECAUSE you can't really make 5 different valuable warrior builds in this place .
Regardings to builds played atm in HA ( 40% " balanced " , 40% balanced , 20% sf or randomway ) , and communication req for some builds , which some people can't use , there are not so many build left to play if you still want to HA

House Silvermoon · Apr 09, 2010, 01:41 PM // 13:41

ofc u can make 5 or more viable warrior builds. just most people are too terrible to play warrior or just not ballsy enuf to try different variations.

kedde · Apr 09, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Nobody gives a shit what the definition of "assasin" is.
Rename the class and do something about it then.

Missing HB · Apr 09, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Actually , for 1 year + , i didn't see any other skill that earth shaker , battle rage , primal , dev hammer ( maybe backbreaker ) used. Yes , it's nice to try builds but it belongs to players mentality : most people are " angry " when they lose , and if 1-2 leaves after you lose , all are going to lose. So , people will just run a build which they think it's going to win .
An assassin is fast damage anyway , it's obviously nice that they didnt update damage dealt , conditions and etc.. ( regarding 0 utility professions , like paragons , mesmers ( used for 3 same skills ) and dervish). And , there are enough skills in my opinion to deal with assassins ( prot skills , rit weapons , hexes , snares , etc..) and if you keep dropping to it , it means you just fail and you just had to play hero battles ( instead of saying that it's totally useless )

Fluffy Kittens · Apr 10, 2010, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Yes I agree with the guy above. Dying to assassin is just a fail, too easy to preprot it because there are just too many spells which stop sins combo. But well, I guess people currently playing HA are too bad and can't stop me haha

Killed u man · Apr 10, 2010, 01:55 PM // 13:55

And you guys are again completely missing the point.

Also @kedde:

I tried to teach this to the mainstream community, including most of what is currently concidered the top GvG scene, but all of them are too ignorant to understand "Assassin" is nothing more than a name, and that retouching a couple of skills and mechanics can completely overhaul a profession. But alas, as I said, the majority of the high-end scene left nowadays are the bitchbarplayers (incl in GvG) of +-1/2 years ago, and hence have next to no insight in game design and/or balance.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/b...ml?t=10425515&

Though I've had some extreme idea's here, the main idea is valid, which is that the spike sin doesn't work in GW, and the combo sin IS a good non degenerative idea if implemented right.

@ Rezz Anna

What spells exactly are you talking about? I'll take this again as a proof of your complete lack of understanding the game as a whole, rather than the only class you've played so far.

Guardian? SoA? LS? Last time I checked, they stop warriors just as well, and therefor are completely irrelevant in a Warrior vs Sin discussion. If anything, sin combos go under Spirit Bond, and are thefore harder to prot than Warriors.

Also sins in general are smaller than warriors, and harder to spot (non redbar) than a big ass warrior wearing some huge steel plates. So no, Sins are NOT easy to prot. The truth is that they are hard to prot effectivly, and that's why so many people run them. No matter how bad you are on the sin bar (Cough, you give a good example), since it goes under spirit bond, you can pretty much train targets down untill they get SoA'd or guardian'ed, and even then half your combo is unblockable. (Dual Attack = 75% chance to hit through guardian)

On top of that, it's not the Sins that carry the hexway, it's the hexes. 90% of the time, (when I monk) I can see the target getting spiked by the sin 5 seconds before the actual spike, but Spoil Victor and/or Backfire and/or VoR prevent me from casting, unless I feel like loosing +-300 HP to save one life, only to be a likely death next myself.

SW is a different kind of pressure than a Warrior. Warrior relies on team coordination and damage. If you run a Warrior in a hexway, you are going to get slower kills because a Warrior relies on additional direct damage to kill. (Fire AoE, Channeled Strike, Second warrior, Bow Attacks, Paragons, Shatter Enchant, etc)

So whereas Warriors do more overal DPS than a Sin, the Sin will get more kills in a hexway because they are solo characters. They require no coordination with the team whatsoever (Which is why U can run your shitways without vent) and fit perfectly in the "Every man just spams his bar empty"-mentality of hexway teams.

Also vica versa, a SW in a balanced won't nearly get as much kills as a Warrior, or even none at all because a sin is too slow. It has no fast recharging DW skill and pressure overal is quite low. This does not, however, make SW a "weaker build than a Warrior", because as said before:

1) It's probably the easiest frontline to play, and it therefore should be less effective *which it isn't in hexways*
2) It shines in solo killing. On Cap Point maps, having a SW sin will always net you a major advantage over a balanced, because a SW can kill just about any bar in HA, including Rangers.

kedde · Apr 10, 2010, 10:52 PM // 22:52

I know, I did post in that thread, etc. We're in agreement on some base principles and so on, while probably disagreeing regarding details, but it's often glaringly obvious how a lot of people for the past year who have been considered top players have very little insight in the game, and in general just function like robots.

Its like bad rts players who do nothing but play one style of builds, and therefore cannot adapt when they need to think of something different than close within the bounds of their regular build.

I've facepalmed so many times when having guests and they keep asking who to follow or what to do.

Relating this back to the actual discussion in the thread, it again shows.
If you really believe assasins are balanced because there are plenty of general counters to inflexible melee builds, then you're either braindead or just being a sarcastic ass.

The base principle of the game is that x skill should require y amount of effort to output z amount of effect.
If the effort in y required to make z reasonable is as low as it's always been with assasin builds, then they're pretty much always going to be undesirable.

The very basic principle was that the warrior class was balanced before any of the expansions. A good player could squeeze much more out of it than a worse player could.
With the 2 new melee classes this was also true, but to much lesser degree.
The bottomlevel of skill or effort required for them to be useful was lessened while the roof for when good play would keep rewarding the player was significantly less as well.

That basically meant that assuming you had a good player, the warrior would still be superior in almost any given situation, if the classes were properly balanced.
This meant that assasins and dervishes would really only be used if they were in some way imbalanced.

You can argue whether shadowsteps/VoD etc. changes this a bit, but the general principle still holds true. Assasins are now used because they require too little effort to produce too good results.

Fluffy Kittens · Apr 11, 2010, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

2) It shines in solo killing. On Cap Point maps, having a SW sin will always net you a major advantage over a balanced, because a SW can kill just about any bar in HA, including Rangers.

That's not true at all since a simple meta rit can stop SW sin easily with all the weapons he brainless spams. Regular morning meta melshot ranger can stop SW sin easy aswell simply by not lettin the sin get near him.

Also, you mentioned some monk skills which stop or don't stop SW sin. Well if you played monk just a little bit you would know that simple Life Sheath stops whole sin combo and it doesn't even matter when you use it, you can use it for preprot to fast remove cripple or you can use it after sin is done with the combo to remove deep wound. So advice for all of you baddies how to play vs hexway = spam LS and you CAN'T die under 5 minutes.

But anyway you didn't get the point of I'm trying to say in my posts and that is that SW sins are just too weak (ofc they're good in hexway but so are cripslash wars). SW sin combo is one of the weakest and slowest sin combos there is and it CAN'T kill a full hp target as some other combos like YAA or Coward can.
So to conclude... SW sins are extreme shit and the only reason I play them it's because it's only sin build which works in HA these days.

superraptors · Apr 11, 2010, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

That's not true at all since a simple meta rit can stop SW sin easily with all the weapons he brainless spams. Regular morning meta melshot ranger can stop SW sin easy aswell simply by not lettin the sin get near him.

Also, you mentioned some monk skills which stop or don't stop SW sin. Well if you played monk just a little bit you would know that simple Life Sheath stops whole sin combo and it doesn't even matter when you use it, you can use it for preprot to fast remove cripple or you can use it after sin is done with the combo to remove deep wound. So advice for all of you baddies how to play vs hexway = spam LS and you CAN'T die under 5 minutes.

But anyway you didn't get the point of I'm trying to say in my posts and that is that SW sins are just too weak (ofc they're good in hexway but so are cripslash wars). SW sin combo is one of the weakest and slowest sin combos there is and it CAN'T kill a full hp target as some other combos like YAA or Coward can.
So to conclude... SW sins are extreme shit and the only reason I play them it's because it's only sin build which works in HA these days.

all i gotta say is lol at this post.

How is it the slowest combo when half the bar is 1/4 and 1/2 skill activation. It is the fastest bar out there at the moment and it doesnt even need IAS. This sin bar like tops the list of being the most op other than the original sp sin bars.
No sin bar can kill a full hp target with morale using shields and right armour and dont expect sins to do that either cause that is op, reason why sp and bb were nerfed cause they kinda did that.

Yea spamming life sheath is going to keep you up vs hexway, what a joke there is going to be more then 1 sw sin around u cant pre prot everything with life sheath and even if u pre prot to remove cripple it doesnt stop the sin from deep wounding, you would know this if u were half decent but u have played sin for like i dunno how long and u still dont know the mechanics of it.

Also if ur only going to spam life sheath vs hexway gl with that, its obvious you dont know how to do anything except mash 123 on a sin

Killed u man · Apr 11, 2010, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

That's not true at all since a simple meta rit can stop SW sin easily with all the weapons he brainless spams. Regular morning meta melshot ranger can stop SW sin easy aswell simply by not lettin the sin get near him.

This simple meta rit you speak off doesn't have direct healing. The bleeding from Twisting pretty much counters WoW/resilient and if he uses shadow he's got no regen whatsoever. All the sin needs to do is keep training the rit down, and when a weaponspell is about to end (Aka not being a complete retard as a sin) use trampling ox to get a free falling + twisting fangs off.

If you can't solo a HA rit, which only has Kaolei and Life as heals (Which have 20/25 s recharge) you ARE doing something wrong. And if you're then smart enough to kill him after time, you can solo just about every other character they send back.

Quote:

Also, you mentioned some monk skills which stop or don't stop SW sin. Well if you played monk just a little bit you would know that simple Life Sheath stops whole sin combo and it doesn't even matter when you use it, you can use it for preprot to fast remove cripple or you can use it after sin is done with the combo to remove deep wound. So advice for all of you baddies how to play vs hexway = spam LS and you CAN'T die under 5 minutes.

Yes, but in a hexway, the focus isn't on the frontline, because they're just there to spread DW and/or mini spike targets down (WS, SW, etc), the focus is on the hexes. Clearly, you have yet to play a prot Monk, because facing hexways is not just "spam LS on recharge".
For starters, you BARELY have energy, because the VoR usually strips your channeling on cast. (And if not him, it's one of the many necros with rip/strip/rend) You pretty much have to use veil on recharge, Spirit Bond the HB when he has backfire and/or VoR AND remove nasty DW's from ppl. You simply can't watch both sins to reflex the criple before trampling. On top of that, they can use Black Mantis every 4 seconds.

So no, you can't juse "Spam LS" against a hexway and assume everything is going to be alright. You need SoA so your warriors can power through empathy, you need Spirit Bond so your HB can actually heal. If SW hexway was so easy to prot/heal against people wouldn't be wiping to it. Just as with any other hexway, a balanced team has to rely on the hexway being bad to win, because I can't see a good SW hexway loose to a balanced without additional hexremoval. (Ranger balanced with Rt/N) Unless again the Monks are soo bad every time the hammer warrior KD's someone in AoE it dies, but that's rather your prot and heal Monk being bad than the balanced being a better build.

Quote:

But anyway you didn't get the point of I'm trying to say in my posts and that is that SW sins are just too weak (ofc they're good in hexway but so are cripslash wars). SW sin combo is one of the weakest and slowest sin combos there is and it CAN'T kill a full hp target as some other combos like YAA or Coward can.

Clearly, you haven't played YAA or coward. Neither of those builds has blades of steel, and were pretty much exactly the same combo as a SW. (Leaping Mantis, Fox, Trampling, Falling Lotus and twisting)

On top of that, SW adds a free 150 armor ignoring damage and a 50% hex snare. So again, you couldn't be more wrong. If HB still was around, you'dd see all the YAA and coward sins running SW right now.

Also, Cripslash warriors work in hexway, but are lesser effective than sins or dervs. (They also have a strong solo spike with Crip/gash/SunMoon/Savage slash/ Conjure) But that's again me previous point, Cripslash is a solo kill bar, and only needs very few additional damage to kill.

Quote:

So to conclude... SW sins are extreme shit and the only reason I play them it's because sins is the only class I ever played, and I refuse to try any other class because I genuinly believe sins require most skill to play.

Fix'ed

Amaurosis · Apr 11, 2010, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

.

But anyway you didn't get the point of I'm trying to say in my posts and that is that SW sins are just too weak (ofc they're good in hexway but so are cripslash wars). SW sin combo is one of the weakest and slowest sin combos there is and it CAN'T kill a full hp target as some other combos like YAA or Coward can.
So to conclude... SW sins are extreme shit and the only reason I play them it's because it's only sin build which works in HA these days.

Wow.... SW is weak yet every assassin and their mother runs that bar

. Being able to spam a 1/4 snare with a quick recharge chain is extreme shit

? A regular YAA 5 dag-chain is comparable in damage to SW since you're only swapping a few attacks. Not to mention the addition damage SW provides from a condition. SW is far from weak, as any player of any skill level can pretty much effectively run it, which someone mentioned was a problem in a previous post. 7s 50% Snare with DPS w/ condition+ your half your bar recharging in under 10s. Too good results with too little effort. You say SW are weak/slow and cripslash is just as effective w/ hexway, then why not run cripslash instead? Maybe you're still under the impression that warriors are nothing but c-space machines with high armor/damage. Obviously this is pointless, you've admitted to running SW and will go out of your way to claim it is weak and difficult to run since it is being targetted in this thread.